Is a Sandman still a Samdman?????

**Absinth** · 02-02-2011, 01:37 PM

Some interesting questions were posted in another thread so I thought I'd start up a discussion on it.

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it's tags are gone???

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if the chassis doesn't match???

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it has had a body swap???

As far as I'm concerned the identity of a vehicle is in its tags.

If the tags are gone than a van is just a Belmont or Holden van and a ute is just a Belmont, Holden or Kingswood ute regardless of previous Sandman heritage. No tags.... No ID.

If you pranged your 76 Sandman in 78 and the chassis was beyond repair you could purchase a new chassis from GMH and have your Sandman repaired. The Sandman ID from the tags is still in place and the car is still a Sandman but has a replacement chassis.

Same applies to a replacement body shell to some degree..... A new body shell could be purchased from GMH to replace a badly damaged one....... However...... a replacement body shell from GMH had its own tags fitted denoting it as a Nasco replacement shell so technically your Sandman ID would now be gone as the original Sandman tags would stay with the old shell.

However.... I know of quite a few panelbeaters that did body replacements to repair vehicles back in the 80's that simply removed the Nasco ID and riveted the original ID from the old shell to the new one as it saved the owners the extra inconvenience of changing the details with the various registration depts.

In my opinion replacing a body shell is no different than replacing damaged panels... as long as the tag ID remains the vehicle is still a Sandman.

Now-a-days as collectors/restorers I still believe the tag ID denotes the vehicle pedigree no matter what has been replaced..... BUT.... a vehicle with matching ID... Body-Chassis-Tags-Engine will be the most valuable... non matching engine to a smaller degree less valuable and non matching chassis decreasing the value by a bit more.

As far as I'm concerned the value in a Sandman, Monaro etc is in the ID tags and in particular how correct the restoration is.
If you have a L31 M21 HQ Sandman that has had a WB Statesman front fitted, HZ GTS dash and Statesman interior fitted, 9" diff fitted and painted Hothouse green.... the Sandman ID is worthless....

This is my personal opinion only and others are welcome to agree or disagree.

**HK1837** · 02-02-2011, 02:49 PM

I pretty much agree with most of what Absinth says above, mainly bar the 2nd last paragraph. I've always been an advocate (even back in the mid 80's), that if you were going to build a modified car, start with something with intrinsic value. So as an example, if you wanted to build a hot Torana, start with an SLR5000 and go for broke from there. In the early 90's an rolling SLR5000 with very little rust was worth $1000, a whole car in good nick $3000. Stuff around with it and it would always still have intrinsic value. If you took the slightly cheaper way out and bought a Sunbird or 4cyl Torana you ended up with the same thing, but it had no inherent value other than the parts you put into it.
Come forward to today and you want a nice, good looking van or ute. To me the smart thing to do is find a Sandman. Spend $15,000 well on a Sandman and you'll pretty much not lose your investment. Do the same on a WB van or an original 6cyl 3spd HX and you throw $10,000 away. So to use Absinth's example of an L31 M21 HQ Sandman that has had a WB Statesman front fitted, HZ GTS dash and Statesman interior fitted, 9" diff fitted and painted Hothouse green, if done right to me that is still at least a $12-$15,000 ute (or van) (maybe a HQ isn't such a good example though as it'd have had structural mods to the dash and cowl, so lets say the same thing but in a HJ!). Do the same to a base model HJ-HX and to me the van is worth the parts that create it.
I'm actually using the same philosphy with one of my HK's. The Warwick yellow GTS327 I have will one day cop a 427, Muncie, 12 bolt, Harrop brakes and 18x8" CV8 rims. Probably have a cage and harness as well. I have a near perfect HK 6cyl GTS shell (Silver mink with red trim) that would be a lot easier, but to me the base value isn't there. The GTS327 has a tag and chassis number inherent value of say $15k, the GTS probably $1,000.
Lastly, on body swaps, I have no problem with it but not for all examples. Some have firewall numbers and other features you cannot replicate without effectively breaching rebirthing laws. Some bodies you can replace with an identical example with no identifying numbers, but the body must be from the same assembly plant, series and month or it isn't worth doing in my opinion.

**ozbox** · 02-02-2011, 03:44 PM

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it's tags are gone???

no.. its just another van and there is no real way to prove that its a genuine unless you have the original purchase papers and log books.

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if the chassis doesn't match???

no ...its identity has been changed and therefore does not correspond numbers wise with its main tag that has the chassis number on it...see question one answer for expansion..

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it has had a body swap???

yes if it retains its tags and chassis numbers and they all match..

--- Updated ---

just to expand on what i have said above...
die hard restorers that go to other forums and have seen similar discussions may believe that removing tags and putting them on other bodies is wrong but the fact that the vehicle has a removable body from an independant chassis changes the game a bit..
you could buy a chassis from holden and back then the beaters stamped the original chassis number in it so there was no grief in reregistration...
you could also buy a body shell which would come with tags stating it was a gm replacement but again these were launched for ease of reregistration or whatever.
just a big meccano set...:Flower:

**wbute** · 02-02-2011, 05:02 PM

I have my opinion on chassis numbers which is much the same as Absinth. I think it adds to the value of a van/ute if they match but it isnt the be all and end all to their identity. However if you say that then it opens the whole can of worms as to the sale of tags on their own. I dont agree with that at all. So i suppose that means that you need the correct chassis to be 100% legit. So....... where do you stand if your chassis is blank? In the same position as any sandmans that have had a chassis replacement and restamp that the owners are unaware of really. There must be heaps of them about.
Owners books and full history to me is the most reliable and therefore any vans/utes with that are the most valuable by a country mile.

**HZSandman** · 02-02-2011, 06:18 PM

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it's tags are gone???

Yep, if it was a Sandman it is still a Sandman without the tags. It may be harder to prove that's all. E.G. I buy a Sandman brand new, have all the purchase documentation photos of my pride and joy, etc then someone steals the car and it is recovered minus the tags. It is still a Sandman, but not worth as much. Even the insurance company will pay out some of the value based on the fact that is harder to prove it is genuine and therefore not worth as much to others. I know I would not buy a legit Sandman without the tags even if I could say yes it is still a Sandman.

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if the chassis doesn't match???

Yes...As above. It has just got a new or second hand replacement part. Still would not buy it. Well Maybe :Chin:

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it has had a body swap???

Uncommitted. If it retains its tags and chassis numbers and they all match.. But to do this the tags must have first been removed from the previous body. Actually I don't know about this one. If just the tags were swapped and every other part was from the donor vehicle I would say no. Not sure I have a definite answer on this one. I know I would feel duped if I bought a car only to find out the tags did not belong to it.

**TwoTees** · 02-02-2011, 07:35 PM

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it's tags are gone???

Yes. But not worth the premium that a Sandman pulls. Its value is now the same as a Belmont with the same specs.

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if the chassis doesn't match???

I think Holden got it wrong by splitting the body and chassis and not putting all relevant numbers on 1 component that can be used to ID a vehicle.
eg. HK, T, G have the tags and body number on the body so to smash it and replace the front sub section. No worries.
Smash a HQ - WB you loose the body/chassis number.
Having said that, I still think it is a sandman with a chassis change but not worth as much.

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it has had a body swap???

No. The tags were put on the body shell. That body shell is the vehicles soul.

**stickthis** · 02-02-2011, 07:37 PM

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it's tags are gone???
No. Tags and chassis package together are the ID for the "sandman" No tags = Mockup

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if the chassis doesn't match???
No. The whole car in my eyes is not a sandman. The tages are a sandman yes. But the tags could be put onto any other van. Does that make that van a sandman??
So the various sets of sandman tags I have here. Does that mean I own several sandmans as soon as I bolt them onto a new body?? (they never will be btw)

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it has had a body swap???
Yes. the "sandman" is in the tags and chassis package. Aslong as its done right and to right series and plant build.