Hq sandman panel vans & Utes - how many?

[HK1837]

Not correct. GMH very rarely ever made their sports or special or otherwise variants a separate model, it just didn't happen. It says it in black and white in various GMH literature that such production option variants are meant to be and were seen as separate models. Here is an example from the HZ features manual, in this case the Sandman (XX7 and XU3) and the Kingswood (A9K) made it into regular production. The Statesman Calais didn't happen immediately and ended up as the Champagne edition later, simply an option pack like the SL/E.

Features manual B-1 crop.jpg

[wbute]

You can argue till the cows come home. There was no special model designation ever on Sandman plates unlike Monaro or Kingswood. These were both based around a simple production model as were Sandman.
Sandman I would imagine only made it into production because they cost nothing extra to produce excluding a sticker package. Everything was already developed for the GTS range which did get a specific model code unlike Sandman that is just a stickered up ute or van.
There are Sandmans that are totally no different to a optioned ute or van and it is not possible to identify them. There is no way they can be called a seperate model.

[HK1837]

I'm not arguing, as there is no argument to be had. GMH intended the HX-HZ Sandman to be seen as a separate model so it is. HQ-HJ never really were, they were just extra goodies like a Thunder. HX-HZ were upgraded into a different vehicle from their base.

FYI Monaro used a Kingswood's model codes. Monaro LS used a Premier's model codes. Monaro GTS had its own codes but Monaro GTS sedan used a Kingswood's model code for HQ. Monaro LE used a HX GTS's model code. GTS sedan in HZ used the same model code as HJ-HX Monaro GTS and the same as LE. SL/E Statesman used Caprice's model code. XU1 used a GTR's model code. ALL of these are intended to be separate models. It is how it was done, end of story. The only reason a GTS327 was given a different model code from GTS in HK (and subsequently in HT-HQ) was to hide the HK from US scrutiny as GM had a worldwide ban on racing, it was originally intended to be a GTS with L34 engine option, and the first car built was exactly that - a Warwick Yellow GTS with L34 engine option. GM performance cars in the US were all done as option packs on lesser models. This is how Z28, ZL1 etc were all done.

[wbute]

You say it yourself,LE used HX GTS code. GTS had its own code the same as Kingswood had its own code. Sandman never had its own code. It was 8M exactly the same as the Holden ute. LE was also just a marketing exercise like Sandman. Just a tarted up styling exercise using other existing parts. As was SLE stato.
Unless you can go to GMH and quote the model ID and have them tell you that your car is a Sandman and not a standard Holden ute then its not a seperate model is it.

[HK1837]

Yes, as GMH intended it to be. Just like a HQ SS or GTS sedan, these code up as a V8 Belmont sedan or V8 Kingswood sedan but never wore a Belmont or Kingswood badge as they were intended to be a separate vehicle. GMH today cannot tell you if a HQ SS or HQ GTS sedan is a SS or Belmont or GTS or Kingswood, you can only pick them by trim codes (until late GTS anyway where the lux level on the VIN tag changed from N to Q). This is exactly the same as HX-HZ Sandman ie no Holden badges and in many cases a different trim code. The luxury level part of the model code is often shared, examples:

HQ - Holden (cab chassis) and Belmont share 01 and 02, Monaro and Kingswood share 03 and 04, Premier and LS share 11 and 12. GTS sedan also shares 04 with V8 Kingswood, SS shares 02 with both Belmont V8 and Holden V8 (cab-chassis)
HJ/X - Holden (commercials) and Belmont (passenger) share WM, Premier and LS share WP, GTS and LE share WQ (these are both very different models).
HZ - Kingswood and Kingswood SL share WN (these are different models).

In HX-Z Holden, Belmont and Sandman share WM.

[wbute]

So whatever GMH intended is irrelevant. You can not identify a Sandman by a model code because they don't have one. Unlike an actual model like HX GTS sedan which had a specific VIN code 8Q69 and the 2 Door which was 8Q37.
What GMH intended and what they actually did are two different things. They never actually gave Sandman a model in HQ-HZ.

[HK1837]

No-one ever said they did, how you identify them today has no relevance whatsoever to what they are meant to be, GMH couldn't have given an iota how you identify them today. All that mattered was they had vehicles to sell and made money, end of story. What GMH intended is the ONLY relevant thing: HX and HZ Sandman WERE 100% no argument intended to be seen as a separate vehicle just like an XU1 was intended to be seen as a separate vehicle to a GTR and an SLR5000 was intended to be seen as a separate vehicle to an SL/R - these two shared exactly the same model codes as their base. In fact HX Sandman was even further removed from its base vehicle as it did not even carry the base vehicle's name (HOLDEN) unlike the SLR5000 and GTR XU1 which still carried part of the base vehicle's identity. If all things had gone as intended there most likely would have be no Sandman, we would have had an SS variant which would have been available on sedan, ute and van. Instead we got the Monaro GTS sedan and the Sandman commercials.
8Q37 isn't the model code, nor is 8Q69. These are respectively: the manufacturer, the luxury level and the body style. The actual MODELS in this case are 8WQ69 (HX GTS sedan) and 8WQ37 (HX LE coupe) - again perfect examples of two totally different vehicles sharing the same coding.

[wbute]

Oh you miss the point. Holden never gave them a code and that is what is important. It is the only thing that people have that is black and white to identify vehicles. A shipping container of paperwork that no one has access to indicating what GMH intended has no use to anyone. They never gave Sandman any unique model codes.
The few unique trim codes and option combinations are how a Sandman is seperates from other Holden commercials. Yet ther are Sandmans that are identical to standard commercials and will never be proven.
They are not a seperate model and that is the black and white reality. All they had to do make then a model was change one letter on the tags. Mor N to another letter. They didn't.

[wbute]

So you use the unique Sandman model code to identify Sandmans?

[Vombil]

i wonder if all the puff would come out of the sandman market if you simply made people understand that a thunder ute is the modern day equivalent...

makes me very glad I sold mine. as more people have greater access to information all it does is create more question marks as anyone looking to fake one has ALL the info they need to do so. I wonder how you'd go explaining to the magistrate you sold your car as a sandman because 'mysandman members told me it probably was'. i mean seriously if you have an HQ and you're hanging your hat on some console mounts that are covered in carpet as the only means to verify you have a sandman then you've got problems.

rails easily re-stamped and plates easily removed and replaced (to the untrained eye). I can smell some big law suits in the future if peoples investments hang on all these shitty little pieces of the puzzle that need to fall together to put forward a strong case but still never a 100% guarantee.

perhaps it will only be XU3 and XX7 stamped cars that will hold $$ in the long term and others will fall into the 'replica' category.

I respect what Byron is saying here and I'm sure the intentions were clear at the time but without a model code it has created a real mess some 35-40 years on!!!!