308 Lifter Problem

[chrisp]

Short(ish) story
Car is 78 sandman with original 308 engine. Everything is as it left the factory bar extractors.
-it started with a tick
-Cam lobe worn off original camshaft and lifter concaved. Not that uncommon.
-New "stage one" Hydraulic comp cam, lifters, springs (originals 35 years old), timing chain kit, gasket set PLUS all the bits that look iffy when you pull the motor apart. Very specific with the speed shop in regards to what it was going into and what I wanted from it. I even asked for a stock cam.
-Cam installed and dialled in, manifold back on, front end together, dizzy set
And here's where things dont quite go right.
-I check the lifter preload (on 1,2,7 & 8) and it's about 3.5mm (should be about 1mm) on each one.
-I ring the biggest aftermarket supplier in Australia (who I bought all the gear off) and ask them if I've checked the preload incorrectly.
After giving them the invoice number (so they will talk to me) they tell me I have the wrong lifters.
I have racing (?) ones!
I can come back and buy the correct ones (and obviously some more gaskets).
No help with the preload.

Excluding going back to them and sorting that side out, I have a few questions.

DID I check the lifter preload correctly?
I left the new lifters in oil overnight, but no pumping.
Install lifters, rods and rocker gear at TDC firing.
Gently screw down the stock rocker gear until there is resistance spinning the push rod (ie the lifter spring starts to compress).
Something started to twig here because the lifter spring is very easy to compress.
Mark the pushrod with a scribe, and then torque the rockers to spec.
Re-scribe and measure the difference (approximately 3.5mm). Shims required?
Are the lifters different length from stock?
Is the base circle on the cam different?

ARE they the right lifters?
They look identical.
They came in a bag, so identification is an issue, these "RACING" lifters.
The only indication I have is the invoice that has R after the lifter number.
After telling me I bought the wrong lifters Mr speed shop says they should be preloaded to ZERO. A hydraulic lifter, I know that aint right.
My understanding of "racing" (assume anti-pump up) lifters is they bleed at a greater rate, to stop them "growing" at high oil pressures, ie high rpm.
Mr speed shop has no idea about bleed, he just says I need zero preload and they will only work with adjustable rockers.

Comments please

Chrisp

[Taily]

With a standard hydraulic setup the lifter pre-load is set by the pushrod length and isn't ajustable unless you change the pushrod length or fit adjustable rockers. In your case, as long as you fit direct replacement standard lifters you don't need to do either as long as the heads/block haven't been re-surfaced by a great amount. Out of interest, are you absolutely sure the heads have never been off? Re-surfacing the heads and/or block acts to reduce the installed height of the rocker arm (the distance between the cam lobe and the installed rocker arm - if you follow what I mean), which can lead to geometry issues (very rare but possible) with the pushrods now needing to be shorter than standard.

What was the make and part number (on the paperwork) for your lifters? By racing lifters I guess they are saying "anti pump-up" lifters which (as you mention) tend to bleed down quicker - the possible cause of your "easy to compress" issue you raised.

Leaving them in oil overnight should be plenty unless you were using very thick oil (SAE60 or greater), the thinner the oil the better to fill them with and don't forget to moly the lobe mating surface well. You can "pump them" if you want to but that oil will be exhausted out of the lifter anyway when you install them.

Just fit the new standard replacement lifters, pushrods and rockers and torque them up. The only thing to remember is to torque the rockers with the valves in the closed position and when you start the engine make sure you run-in the cam and lifters exactly as described on you cam spec sheet, then turn the engine off and change the oil and filter while it is still hot.

I have to ask, have you addressed the cause of the oiling issue that caused the cam to chew a lobe in the first place?

Regards,

Dave.

[HK1837]

Dave, the oiling issue is the oil pump on 253/308. If it is the original get a new one!

[chrisp]

DAVE,
Thanks for the feedback

I cant be 100% certain the heads have never been touched, although it would have been a while ago if they were. It's run for a long time with stock gear and "possible" shaved heads. And no, I didn't check the preload prior to removing the old bits. Another option with resetting the geometry is shimming the rockers.

The "Part Number" for the lifters is SPHT969R, which I would assume is the speed shops number.

I "drowned" the lifters in 20w-50 engine oil , with comp cam run-in goo (comes with the cam) on all mating surfaces.

I ASKED for standard lifters, but now have to pull the motor down again. I wont start the engine until I have confidence in the set up. The cam will be run in as specified, and the oil will be changed after break in.

The failure, age, lack of use etc. I'm not overly concerned as it's a stock engine and its a known issue with the 308.

The car gets much better care than it received just prior to being mothballed 13 years ago.

Chrisp

- - - Updated - - -

HK1837

The oil pressure has always been good (based on the dash gauge!).
And yes, it looks like the original one.

Chrisp

[Innuendo]

Speed Pro Hi-Rev Anti Pump-Up Lifters is what you have.

[Innuendo]

You want SPHT969 not SPHT969R because the SPHT969R requires adjustable rockers. Where as SPHT969 do not. SPHT969 is a standard replacement 308 lifter.

[Innuendo]

SPHT969R
SP = Speed Pro (Brand)
HT = Hydraulic Tappet
969 = Part Number
R = Race

[chrisp]

Thanks guys.
So instead of solving world peace tonight I'll be pulling the inlet manifold back off.

Is there any way of identifying the lifters?
I dont really want to pull everything apart and find I was charged for "race" lifters and received standards.

Chrisp

[chrisp]

Why do I need adjustable rockers?
Does the lifter preload need to be more accurate? (.030"+- 0.10" not good enough).
Do they need regular adjustment? (and thus defeat the porpose of a hydraulic lifter).
Adjustable rockers dont need the oil? (that the anti-pump up lifters bleed away).

Bottom Line
Could you, or would you use these on a stock-ish engine.

Chrisp

[RAEME]

Mate it doesn't matter if they are race or not. I always shim the rocker pedestals on standard rocker gear. Get yourself a hand full of copper shims, a Long handle ratchet to wind her over and set each cyl one at a time.